AI for Kids

AI Slop, Character.ai Risks, and Spotting AI Hype (Middle School+)

• Amber Ivey (AI) • Season 3 • Episode 14

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What do kids really touch when they “use AI”? We sat down with educator Tom Mullaney and early virtual economy pioneer Tim Allen to strip away the buzzwords and bring AI back to what children actually experience: predictive systems that generate words, pictures, and sounds without authorship or intent. From Second Life marketplaces to today’s chatbots, we trace how hype blurs reality, how “easy button” tools undercut learning, and why kids deserve a clear, practical map for using AI without losing creativity or judgment.

We dig into a simple, striking demo: nine leading models drawing a wall clock once per minute, often getting it wrong in different ways. That moving snapshot opens a bigger lesson—if a model can’t keep a clock straight, don’t trust it where accuracy matters. Tom explains why generative AI reads as polished but painfully boring in student writing, while Tim offers pathways for young coders to use models for boilerplate and then switch to human craft for novelty and taste. Together we explore the mental health risks of parasocial chatbot bonds, the screen-addictive design of platforms, and the Harvard study that ties lifelong happiness to real relationships, not fleeting likes.

Parents and teachers will find practical guardrails: ask who built the tool and who benefits, demand transparency and family controls, and push for real accountability when systems output harmful content. Kids get a north star: humans create, computers generate. Keep AI as a tool, not a crutch. Choose projects that make you think, verify results, and be proud to fail boldly as you learn. We also touch on the environmental cost of running large models and why a family-first approach to AI can help everyone stay curious, safe, and grounded.

If this conversation helps you teach skepticism without fear and keep kids building in the real world, share it with a friend, subscribe for more like this, and leave a review with the one guardrail you’d add first.

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Amber Ivey:

Welcome to the AI for Kids Podcast, the podcast for moms, aunties, and teachers who want the kids they love to understand AI without more screen time. We keep it simple, safe, and fun. No tech degree required. Each episode breaks down AI ideas and includes activities to help kids use AI in ways that keep them curious and creative. No pressure, no overwhelm, no extra screens. Just clear, engaging learning you can feel good about. Let's get started. Today we've got two amazing guests. We actually haven't had that yet on the podcast, and I'm super excited. One teaches kids with creativity and fun, and the other was trading video game money before many of you were born. I know you're probably wondering what that even means. Don't worry, we're gonna get to it. But they both have big thoughts about how AI is shaping your world. Tim Allen and Tom Mullaney, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01:

Great to be here. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02:

Thanks so much for having us. I'm excited.

Amber Ivey:

I am too. So, kids, before we jump in, I always look for folks to be on the show, and it was super cool because Tim and Tom agreed to do it together, and I think you're gonna be in for a treat. But before we jump in, I want to do a quick this or that. So are y'all ready? No thinking, just quick answer. I don't want explanations. You can't explain, just say which one it is. Are you ready?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, sure.

Amber Ivey:

All right, we're gonna go. Alan starts with an A. Tim, you're gonna do yours first, and then Tom, you're gonna go second. Because the T's, that's not gonna work out. But perfect. Robots or humans? Humans.

SPEAKER_01:

Humans.

Amber Ivey:

Okay. Creating something or fixing something? Creating.

SPEAKER_01:

Same. Creating.

Amber Ivey:

Okay. AI that makes life easier or AI that makes life more fun. Fun.

SPEAKER_01:

I'll say neither. I don't think it I don't think it has the ability to do either.

Amber Ivey:

So you all are gonna learn what Tom's background is in a second, but I love that answer. Books or YouTube? Books.

SPEAKER_01:

Same. Books.

Amber Ivey:

Okay. Virtual world or real world?

SPEAKER_02:

This one was tough for me, but I went virtual.

SPEAKER_01:

No, real world.

Amber Ivey:

Oh yeah. Solve a mystery or build something new? Solve a mystery.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, same. Absolutely.

Amber Ivey:

I love this. Talking to an AI or talking to your pet. Talking to my pet or a rubber duck, but more on that later.

SPEAKER_01:

But definitely a pet.

SPEAKER_02:

Coding class, but that should require a minor in history.

Amber Ivey:

I love that.

SPEAKER_01:

So I'm currently teaching history, so of course, history class.

Amber Ivey:

You have to say history, right? Bike ride or video game?

SPEAKER_01:

Bike ride. Bike ride, yeah.

Amber Ivey:

Shocking. Okay. Learn with friends or learn solo. Learn solo.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, same. I'd like, yeah, I just like to learn what I want to learn. So solo.

Amber Ivey:

So I've learned a lot and I feel like I've known you all much better. Now we're ready to get into it. I feel like we're gonna have a very interesting conversation now that the kids kind of get an idea where you're coming from. So, Tom, you've taught kids and teachers, which is interesting because you're on both sides of a very interesting dichotomy, right? What is the one moment in your classroom that made you think, yep, this is why kids need to understand technology early?

SPEAKER_01:

So I would say I actually don't think I've had that moment. I think, especially in this day and age, kids have so much exposure to technology. I think there's basic understandings and knowledge that we all need to have. And unfortunately, as I've seen Tim present about, we're getting further and further away from. And then also just critical thinking. That's what kids need. And then, like a lot of other different hobbies, passions, pursuits, technology can come too.

Amber Ivey:

That is a perfect answer. One of the things we always talk about in the show is like critical thinking, curiosity, those skill sets that are gonna last a long time. And we've seen even in like some of the different forums that happen across the world where they talk about skills, like critical thinking is like a top skill, even over things like coding. So I get where you're coming from there. And Tim, you were selling real stuff for video games um for a long time, right? And when you when I said bike ride or video game, I was shocked you said bike ride because you were selling real stuff for video game currency before most people even knew what virtual money was. How did that even happen? And what do your younger, what did the younger Tim think he was building?

SPEAKER_02:

Now, don't get me wrong, I like a good video game, but bike riding is my zen. I get up early every morning and I ride along the Scooko River Trail, and it's just an absolutely beautiful part of my life. That uh, you know, I love both. So everything in balance a little bit, but bike riding would take the edge slightly. Um, but you know, I've always liked to experiment and stay ahead of the curve. And uh that first meant writing a senior thesis 30 years ago on theoretical AI and virtual reality and how it might impact us all. I wrote that in 1995 and 1996. So, again, before most of the audience was born, all of the audience was born. Um I became one of the first users of a virtual world called Second Life a few years later. It's actually still around today, it's been around over 20 years. Um, I was one of the first 20 users or so, I think, way back then. And I found this amazing community of people over my first year or two there, creating all kinds of these wonderful things on sort of this ultimate blank canvas. And I made a web portal that allowed all these folks to buy and sell these virtual items in a unified interface because you'd have to fly all over this virtual world to try to find these things. And instead, I was like, why can't everybody just come to a web portal and you know there were millions of items listed? CNN called it the Amazon of virtual items, but I've always had this mad scientist in me, and I'll tell the kids out there that mad scientist you have in you that can be an asset for your entire life. It's always made me want to sort of push the limits and experiment. And I wanted to see if people would actually spend the video game currency on real life items. Yeah, and people did. I sold computer monitors and NVIDIA video cards. Oh, wow, and it surprised me that people were that interested, and it surprised me even more when some pretty major media outlets decided to cover it. Um CNN covered it, The Guardian, and even MTV actually did a bit on how I was selling real life items for a video game currency. Um, but it worked out well, and uh it was an interesting experiment back then.

Amber Ivey:

It's funny. Kiss, I hope you're listening because that was something that wasn't heard of back then. Like, of course, Second Life has been out for some time. A lot of people play it even now and love that game. And I feel like it's been in the news a lot a lot lately. I don't know if another one has come out or something has happened, but Second Life has been in the news a bunch lately as a video game. But thinking about what Tim was talking about around the mad scientist and like creating a market or a industry out of something that didn't necessarily exist, and I would have thought that you sold things that were like in the virtual space, not like actual real items. So that's super cool that you were able to have that foresight. And with AI and these other technologies and tools, you can think creatively about that. But I want to dig in a little bit deeper and pull back for one second before we dig in around like if a sixth grader asks you both, what is AI really? And I ask that because often on the show I will say to guests, like, explain AI for a fifth grader, et cetera. But I'm asking you all a very specific question. What is AI really? How would you explain it in a way that doesn't sound scary or confusing, but also keeps it practical, which I think is a big part of today's conversation.

SPEAKER_01:

So, Amber, what I'd say about AI is first of all, understand that there's no actual textbook definition that AI, artificial intelligence, is a term that people who want to sell some sort of computer program use to describe their thing to make it sound amazing, right? And what we I think are all like fascinated by or interested in now is this thing called generative AI. And what that is, is like simple rule do you type something in and then does it spit something out? Like that's what we're talking about. Um, and so if you hear news like, oh, AI is gonna cure cancer or AI is gonna land uh airplanes safer, ask yourself, okay, is that something that I would use to type something in and it would spit something or generate something back? It's almost certainly not, and so it's not something that you really need to be worried about until you're an adult working with that AI. Like so that's that's what I would say is it's generative AI, which is what you'll be using on your computer or device, is basically you type in something and it generates some uh some stuff back to you, whether that's text, video, audio, whatever it might be. And that's what you should concern yourself with as far as uh AI. Don't really worry about hearing all this excitement about oh, it's gonna do this, or that's not what you're doing on your laptop.

Amber Ivey:

I'm so glad you said that. There's times where I'm in these conversations where I'm like, we're using the word AI to mean, and then I have to like put caveats or say different words to explain what we mean here because it's thrown across on everything. And you're right, what we are talking about in today's society with what we have, our ability to touch as like everyday humans, is generative AI. And the that AI is not gonna do all these things. Like, even the scientists who have built it have already come to us and said, Hey, there's limits here. This thing is not gonna be that. So I love that you explained that. I wanted to ask Tim if there's anything else you want to add, feel free to jump in, but no pressure there.

SPEAKER_02:

Sure. So I like to remind kids how amazing they are. You know, I sold my first computer program when I was 12 years old. Oh, yeah. And I've got a 13-year-old stepdaughter who's absolutely amazing. Hi, Lindsay, if you're listening. And uh, having conversations is the key to me, not talking at each other, but with each other. And I think kids are perfectly capable of understanding the limitations of this technology and how it has to be respected, maybe better than the adults in the room, because they've grown up with these technologies around them. And I found a wonderful site really, which illustrates a lot of my concerns by showing the limitations and problems with LLMs visually. And I'll share the link. But what it does, it uses nine popular models to generate a wall clock with the same prompt every minute. So the website shows nine clocks, one for each model, every minute it refreshes. And what's fascinating is how different they are, even within the same model, every minute they change. Sometimes they're almost right, but then even on the same model, they're completely wrong the next minute. And there's never more than one or two out of the nine which could be considered correct on any given minute. So this website visually, I sometimes find it's better to show rather than tell, and then have a discussion. It allowed Lindsay and I to have a conversation about oh, wait, you mean seven out of these nine answers are wrong every minute? Wow. And these models are right one minute and wrong the next, even within one. You can just visually see with an example that we all understand, a really great conversation starter. And it's been such a good example. I found this site about a week ago. I found out about a second monitor just to remind me that anything that comes out of an LLM, I need to check, I need to verify. And I think kids are smart enough to understand this, absolutely. But when you see a striking representation of the accuracy that we're dealing with, I think it's really important. And exploring these together to understand how these algorithms work is essential to understanding how they can work alongside the human mind. Also, having the conversations about the companies who are creating these, and the technology industry is creating these, and their track record of actively harming young minds, I think is essential because big tech has an abysmal track record with dealing with kids. And uh our kids are smart enough to understand this.

Amber Ivey:

I agree with you a hundred percent. I always say to folks, like, I don't want, I mean, big tech for the most part has a profit motive, and I don't want that to be how um it's introduced to kids and what that looks like because there's a motive there, and there are a lot of things that have been happening in big tech that aren't that great. And I think it's important for us to think about like what does it mean, especially in a world where we're in this vicious hype cycle, and there's dangers that come along with that. So, Tim, I wanted to do a follow-up. You said the hype around AI is actually blocking us from seeing what's useful for middle schoolers. What does AI hype look like? And how can they tell the difference between what is hype and what is reality? Like, I love this plaque example. We'll make sure to drop it in the show notes, but what else can they use to help them understand?

SPEAKER_02:

I think uh, you know, one of the best feelings in life is accomplishing something that is difficult, and uh it's also the best way that we learn. Too much of AI geared toward kids, I've noticed, is being marketed as sort of an easy button. And uh what I'd say to kids is you're too smart to fall for this. If something sounds too good to be true, it probably is. I know I get the most joy when I create something, if I really created it. And when I type a few words into a prompt and get a random result that isn't really what I was expecting and really imagining, it's really someone else's creation. It's a derivative creation of really many other people's creation. And you know, my 13-year-old stepdaughter Lindsay really loves anime and has gotten really into remix culture, and it's really big with her friend group right now, down to them chasing likes and views for these remixes thing. Okay. And this worries me because they're not really putting any effort into the creative process, it's all random and derivative. And services like Character AI right now are really sort of preying on this. You know, they have anime characters splashed all over their marketing materials, and with just a couple of words, you can generate your own character and then see how many likes and views you can get. That's the same mess that, you know, Instagram has gotten us into in the past. And, you know, I think kids are smart enough to be able to sort of smell that out. And I think the newness of services like that will wear off quickly enough of them. But as parents, you know, we have to, we have to be able to, you know, we're a team together when it comes to technology and we have to treat this in the same way.

Amber Ivey:

Thank you for saying that because I didn't even think about the fact that character AI literally have so many anime characters until you said it right now, because they do, but to your point, like that's something kids are excited about. And the remix culture, I don't like it. I don't like the remix of the remix, of the remix. So everyone's literally watching to respond, or or is like you said, there's no creativity there, it's just like we're doing the same thing over and over again. So I'm like, you're right, kids are smarter than that, and they know exactly what how to think about that in a way that's different. In your mind, before I head over to Tom, what's one headline or promise about AI that you want kids to question or think twice about? And that one's for you, Tim. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, that was for me, sorry. Um so I think there are many, many services that talk about making things easy. And they're trying to appeal to kids by saying, Oh, are you stuck on something? Well, here's an easy way to get an answer. And what I want kids to start doing, if you see the word easy, remember it often means sloppy or raw. It's a simple replacement. Whenever you see easy, insert sloppy or raw.

Amber Ivey:

I love that. Tom, any thoughts there before we um shift over to some of the areas I know you're focusing on?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I think especially with character AI, I think we know that having something that's not, you know, it's not sentient. Sentient's a big word. It means you know, having consciousness, being alive, right? Interacting with that as if it's a human is really not good for mental health.

unknown:

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So it's just something to think about as far as is this is this the hole I want to go down? Uh, is this what I want to do with my time?

Amber Ivey:

And why do you think, can we dig deeper there a little bit? Why do you think is not helpful for mental health for me as a kid to be on a character AI or some chatbot acting with something that's like it's alive? Why, why could that impact me?

SPEAKER_01:

Right. So whenever we talk amongst each other, we make millions. And in fact, whenever we create, we make millions of conscious and unconscious decisions where we're thinking about what we'll say, we're thinking and considering about what the other person has said. And that's not going on. That chat GPT or thing like you're you're looking at uh character AI, it's just spitting the words that will most likely be in the text that it's been fed. You know, that's all it's doing. There's no consciousness, there's no intent. It's very unhealthy to interact with a computer or with a word generator like it's a human. You know, that's just probably not good. And that unfortunately, we're seeing examples now. Now, I'm not saying that it's been like documented 100% researched, it's too soon for that, but we're seeing examples of people having delusions and thinking, you know, uh thinking thoughts that are not healthy or just completely incorrect because of their interaction with chatbots for a long time. So, hey, you know what? Play a video game because at least with a video game, we're not confusing that for interacting with humans, you know. So just something to think about.

Amber Ivey:

I think that's a very good point because I've been more concerned about these different tools. And I know recently some of the some of the tools like character AI has agreed to take kids off its platform, but this is after kids have developed human-like relationships with word generators, right? And now people are nervous what that will do for their mental health and what that looks like. And I know you were quoted raising concerns about NVIDIA's partnership with Oregon schools in particular. For kids listening right now, what are the biggest questions they should ask when someone brings a new tech into their school? Because honestly, a lot of these technologies that weren't built necessarily for education are showing up in schools and getting contracts in local school districts.

SPEAKER_01:

So, well, the first thing is they should consider who's behind the technology. And you, you and and Tim had the conversation just a minute ago about tech giants and a lot of their behavior is not stuff that we would want to replicate in our schools, in our families, as far as taking care of fellow human beings and how they treat fellow human beings, right? So just think about who's behind it. Look, if your teacher is telling you to do something, you know, that's that's the way school works. You just kind of have to do it, unfortunately. But also something else to keep in mind is that for the last you know about 10 years or so, the amount of educational technology has increased dramatically in schools. Uh the pandemic also played a big role in that. And in that time, the way American students on this thing called it's it's a big test that a bunch of countries take, NAEP. That score keeps going down and down. And is one test like the ultimate predictor? No, but that one is considered pretty decent. And uh so just know that uh there's probably some value if you really want to learn something in taking pen to paper or doing something with actual materials. I mean, think about when you do math, when you have the manipulatives that you use and how those help you. Know that just because technology is in front of you, it doesn't mean it's necessarily the most effective way to learn something.

Amber Ivey:

That's a good point. I was in an interview recently where someone was like, you may just need to pick up a pencil and write it down, versus like run into AI. And sometimes because we have these technologies in front of us, we kind of go there first versus like, no, actually, it would just take you one second to just scribble it down. So I think that's important for us to think about. And when you think about kids right now, Tom, there's YouTube, there's games, there's chatbot. What do you think they should understand about how AI actually works behind those scenes and behind those screens?

SPEAKER_01:

It's almost like those things aren't really working. Like we work, right? We work, we try to do things, we try to make things happen. And those are just generating. So I like to say that humans create and computers generate. And so there's so little, there's no thought, right? Imagine, like, think about a book you read and all the decisions that are made. You know, that's called authorship, right? All this stuff that you consume that's AI generated has no authorship, it has no person behind it saying, Oh, let's go with this color, and for the border, we'll do this, and let's fade the there's just none of that. And so, you know, it's people who criticize it call it slop. And when you hear it called slop, you kind of say, Oh, yeah, that is slop, you know. Um so again, uh consuming stuff that humans create is one thing, but consuming stuff that's generated by a computer with no creative intent, uh, you're just you know, I look, you know, it just it's just slop. Uh you know, it's a little bit. I love it.

Amber Ivey:

It's slop and it's sloppy.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

Amber Ivey:

So but I have been hearing AI slop even more, even to the point I made earlier. Some of the folks who are like authors or creators of these tools are like, hey, we're at a point where it's creating slop and they're saying it. So um I think that makes a lot of sense. And Tim, um, did you want to jump in on this? When kids are thinking about YouTube games and chatbots, what do they what do you think they should understand about AI, how it works behind the screens?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, they're trying to keep the kids locked onto the platforms as much as possible. They're trying to keep you never leaving, they want you locked in there for life. You know, YouTube is now way more popular than television. The advertising on it has there used to be no advertising on YouTube not that long ago. Remember that? Like when YouTube started 20 years ago, there was no advertising for the first, I don't know, five years or so. It was a while. Now it's more advertising. It's like I get a, you know, I have to watch uh so much advertising to watch like a 15-second video clip. It's it's absolutely crazy how that's changed around, but I'm not surprised. But what I want the kids to know is that, you know, both my stepdaughter and my two younger nephews have said to me on separate occasions, I'm more comfortable talking to people online, as if that should make it acceptable to only have online relationships instead of being social with people. And part of that might be an effect of the pandemic, but I think a lot of it also has to do with the technology. So there's probably more than one factor at work here. But I've shared one of my secrets to a happy life so far, and that's experimenting, right? Like I've never lost my childlike sense of wonder or wanting to push boundaries a little bit, or you know, having a little bit of it's better to beg for forgiveness rather than ask for permission. I have a little bit of that in me still. But the other part of having a really happy life, my other secret, there's been a study going on at Harvard for over 85 years. I have never heard of a study running longer than this one, which is trying to find the causes of human happiness, of how to live a happy life.

Amber Ivey:

I've seen that one.

SPEAKER_02:

And the number one indicator is relationships, real-life relationships that you develop and you maintain over time. Tom and I have been friends for over a decade now, for example.

SPEAKER_03:

I love it.

SPEAKER_02:

And these long-term relationships, rather than talking to random people on the internet and getting a couple likes, are what really sustain us to having a happy life. The online relationships and views are fleeting, they're temporary, they do not create long-term happiness. And I think this is something we are going to have to all have a lot of conversations about because you know we're fighting. I I really feel for young people today, these platforms are all made to be addicting, they are all made specifically to prey on people their age, they are all made specifically with a profit motive with no concern to mental health or depression. And these are not necessarily topics that it's unfortunate kids have to have these conversations, right? It's unfortunate we have to have these conversations with our kids because for them to have a happy life, they have to be aware. But I wish it was as easy as just sort of letting them be kids for a while. Um, but I know that's that's unfortunately just not an option because you know, the law and society are so far behind the technology, and it's fallen more and more over the past couple decades that this is where we're at. And um, you know, I say to all the kids out there, never forget that you're amazing. You know, I I always bring up the story of, you know, when I was in kindergarten, uh, if you asked everybody who was in that kindergarten with room with me, who here can draw, everybody would raise their hand.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_02:

Who here can sing, everybody would raise their hand. And then you go to like a room of graduating seniors, who here can draw? Like one hand kind of sheepishly goes up, who here can sing? One hand, you can all sing and you can all draw. And you should absolutely do it because that's what's going to give you a happy life and do it together with other people.

Amber Ivey:

I love that. And I agree with you 100%. That study, it always shocked me when I first hit heard it a few years ago when they shared that they had been following all these people, and it was truly that. And even some of the stuff around mental health is around like being also around people and having those relationships. So I am concerned there. When you both think, and I'm gonna go to um Tom, you first on this one. When you both think about guardrails for kids when it comes to AI, what is one guardrail you wish every AI tool had that interacted with kids?

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so and you know, I I hear a lot in education. I hear a lot of people talking about guardrail. Oh, there's guardrails, oh, we're gonna have guardrails. And um there's a great example. Um these reporters did a thing where they were able to use uh Google Gemini to generate uh scams targeting senior citizens. And they went to Google and Google said, guess what? We got rid of it. And so, like, you know, a week later, these reporters did they were anyway, they did the they did a very like a workaround, and sure enough, it did the exact same thing again. So guard a guardrail really working. Here's a guardrail, though, that I'll tell you, if this guardrail was in place, I would feel a lot differently. And this is the this is it. So let's say you make a poor choice at school, right? You are responsible for that poor choice, and you're going to be held accountable. Well, with these large language models, right now, the way the law is, they're not, these companies are not held accountable. They're not responsible. They generate text that encourages someone to make a very poor choice, harm themselves, harm others, says generates text that's racist or biased, misogynist, hurtful. There's no law, there's nothing that says that the company has to take criminal or like, you know, or be liable or responsible. So if though that was the case, that every time Chat GPT generated some sort of harmful text that it was legally responsible, well, that's a guardrail. I I'd be very I'd say, all right, let's go. That's that's what I'm looking for.

Amber Ivey:

I agree. It's wild because years ago, this was one of the areas where before GenderW AI came out for mainstream, because I've been in this space for a bit of time, it was like, who's responsible? Where are those laws? And even now it's here, it's still like character AI has been sued, ChatGPT has been sued for the things that these word generators have said that have led to really bad outcomes, particularly for kids. If we're to use these things for kids and that's the most vulnerable, most important population, then we need to make sure that those companies are held responsible if they're advertising this for kids. And then, Tim, I want you to ask answer the same thing. Like, what is a guard roll you wish every AI tool for kids had?

SPEAKER_02:

So I love Tom's idea of hitting them in the pocketbook, because I think that'll be most effective. But I can tell you, as uh somebody with you know kids in my life, um, there is absolutely no way to know what they are doing on these platforms. So if we go back, I know we're kind of picking on character AI here, but if there was some interesting character AI. But it's in the news. This is live happening. Some kind of restriction where I could have a parental account that would allow there to be a child account and I could see every prompt, every like that was going on, and see how much time was actually being spent and how much interactivity was going on, um, you know, it would be it would be very different. I mean, we've seen some absolute tragedies where people have gotten too involved with an LLM and made some very bad even life-ending decisions. And if their parents had perhaps had a way of knowing what kind of conversations were going on, um, you know, there may have been a different end to some of these tragic stories. And there are only going to be more and more of these until there is something reined in. Um, so you know, I but the only thing I can think of doing right now, because it's unfortunate that given the current political climate, I think these companies have so much money that it isn't likely that, you know, I I have to appeal to the kids and say, you know, you are smarter than this. Know when you're in trouble. And well, not when you are in trouble, know when you're in a situation that doesn't feel right. And when you're in a situation that doesn't feel right, talk to an adult, an adult you trust. Talk to somebody you trust. And don't always try to chase this as popularity because we are playing with fire here. Like these are these are very incredibly powerful tools that probably shouldn't be in the hands of kids, but they're gonna be because of the profit motive right now. And if you tell that to kids, we can only hope. I know the kids who are listening to this podcast are definitely smart enough to be able to really take that to heart.

Amber Ivey:

I truly appreciate that. And I do believe that as I go around doing workshops for kids or AI for kids workshops, I'm always amazed at how much kids get because they're born in this and how they're able to recognize things that often us adults we kind of miss because we still kind of new to it, unless you like live and breathe this stuff every day. But they're able to say, like, hey, this is wrong or or these things in a way that I didn't expect. So, kids, I'm sorry for not uh not um understanding that you're you're growing up in this time and you get it. Um, but I want to ask you all another question. Like, if you were to speak to the big tech companies for a second, uh they're someone just happens to listen to this, and if you were designing the AI for kids tools from scratch, what would it never do, or what would you never do as it relates to AI for kids and these tools? And Tom, feel free to go first.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, well, I think for generative AI, if you care about something, if you're creating something you care about, I'll give you an example. I have I have a Substack blog, right, where I write stuff and I created a logo for it in Canva.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

And I did this like a year and a half ago now, and the other day I just noticed it and I was like, whoa, actually, I like I really like what I see there, you know? It's like I had, you know, I even though I made it, but and it's just something I put together in Canva and I made all the little decisions, what colors, what what and if you care about the output of something, then you make the decisions, then you figure it out. So, as far as what I would say to companies about designing uh generative AI for apps for for kids, I don't know that that's really a thing we need to do at the moment. Uh, I would say generate some or create something for kids. Like, I'll give you an example. When I first, when I was I was in college when I first was exposed to Adobe Photoshop. Now, this is years ago, and Photoshop has advanced so much now that like I couldn't really use it now. But back when I first saw it, I was so excited and I played with it, and I would go to the the one lab on campus, we could use it and stay there till past midnight. And so just any app that gets kids creating and get you know really excited to do so, I think it'd be great. And I just don't think that's what generative AI does.

Amber Ivey:

So I love the perspective you bring, and I love that you're able to bring the other side of things. Tim, what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_02:

A lot of the same. Uh I'll echo a lot of what Tom said there. But for designing an AI system for kids from scratch, I'd want it to be not for kids, I'd want it to be for family. Um, I love that. Yeah, I want it to be a family journey, a family destination. These tools are far too powerful to be sort of left on their own. And I think not only can the parents help guide the kids through this, I think the kids can help guide the parents through this. And uh together we might be greater than the sum of our parts. So if I was uh talking to the AI companies, if I had Sam Altman in this room with me right now, I'd be polite and I would say it's probably time to think about you know how you're affecting all of society here. And are there any positive benefits we can bring to this by focusing on sort of family units as a whole and taking them through this journey together? I do not think that what is going on right now, um, you know, eventually the uh the truth is we're gonna need an age verification system of some kind for online resources. You know, big tech is fighting tooth and nail in lobbying against that because it'll get in the way of them creating their next generation of addicts. And it's just the unfortunate truth as I see it right now. You know, I work, I volunteer with recovery communities, and the fastest growing recovery community right now is screen addiction. It's video games, it's YouTube, it's compulsive screen usage. And uh, you know, that's gonna continue to grow. You know, fellowships like Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous are seeing their membership decrease.

SPEAKER_03:

Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

The amount of binge drinking we are seeing on college campuses is at an absolute all-time low.

Amber Ivey:

Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

You know, you'd think is a good thing until you realize what's happening is that everybody's on their screens all the time and nobody's out drinking and partying anymore. So 20 years from now, is the biggest 12-step fellowship in the world going to be Screen Addicts Anonymous? It might be.

Amber Ivey:

I think it will, and I didn't even know this was happening in that way. The one thing I knew, like hearing from parents and reading studies, is that parents are saying they want to reduce it. Like I think there's one study that says over 70% P release a study in October. Kiz are just like places that write about these topics, about like parents seeing that it's the biggest issue. But I didn't even realize that these other areas were decreasing because other things are going up online, addiction with video game, gambling, like a whole bunch of stuff happens online now that didn't happen before that people are shifting their attention to. So those are something to think about, especially parents listening with your with your kids. These are things that this generation has to worry about. And I want to put it back on the kids again and say, Tim, I'm going to you first on this one. If a kid is listening right now, wants to build code, draw, or design something with AI, I'm hearing you say they may not need to, but I'm going to ask you if they do it anyway or they're in a school that has AI systems, what's one piece of advice you want them to take, uh to take with them?

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I think make sure you're using the tool and the tool's not using you. When I've tried to create with generative AI, normally I find out that I do it better and quicker, often without, especially when, you know, writing code. If I'm doing something that's generic or boilerplate, then you know, AI LLNs, especially for writing code, have been have been useful, especially if it's a syntax I haven't used in a long time or something like that. Um, but if it's something novel or something really creative, I find it just ends up running around in circles and I end up with slum that really isn't that interesting. And when I want to build or code or draw or design, I want to make something where you know it's gonna wow the work or it's gonna be an abject failure that I'm gonna learn something from. And neither of those happens with AI. Now, AI, if it ever becomes more than your helpful assistant, if it's becoming a crutch, then you know you've gone too far of it. So just be aware when you're using these tools that they should remain tools and not your master.

Amber Ivey:

Yeah, there's a there was a gentleman's post I read on LinkedIn. And kids, if you don't know what that is, it's the social media for adults with jobs, the easiest way to explain it. And one of the things that he's doing because he's been using AI now for three years, we're at the anniversary, right? We're in November 2025 when this came out in November 2022 for the masses. He does an anti-AI December because he's afraid of losing all these skill sets and he uses it so much. He's like, I need to make sure I didn't lose my creativity. I don't know that I still know how to write, I still know how to talk. He wants to make sure all those things are happening. So I totally get that. And then, Tom, I would love to hear your perspective. What's one piece of advice? I'm really excited to hear.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, well, I think a few things. If you care about it, if you want to what Tim said, wow everyone with it, then yeah, generative AI, that's just not what it's meant for, right? Um, the other thing I would say is if accuracy matters at all. Um, when we talk, you know, the people who study large language models and really know they they tell you they are not to be used for tasks where accuracy matters in any way, shape, or form. That is you're you're going to have some failure at some point and it's going to be bad. The other thing I would say is just that uh, especially with writing, uh, large language models, you know, ChatGPT puts out text that is way too grammatically correct to be a student, but also really boring to read. So it's it's like the word, it's like, you know, not only does your does your teacher know, like, oh yeah, but they also are then bored to tears. So just think about that. I I'd say think about that, especially if you care, it's really hard to say, I care about this creation. So let's have computers and generate, you know, uh use a lot of electricity and a lot of water to generate it for me.

Amber Ivey:

That's a good point on the environmental piece because a lot of the kids, especially in the generation we're currently in, care about that. And kids, I don't think we've talked about this on the show yet, but using these different LLMs do have a pretty large burden on the environment and what it looks like for water use uses for the data centers, and y'all learn about data and know what that is. They process a lot of data and they use a lot of water and a lot of energy. So that's a really good point, Tom. So I'm gonna make it a little bit light before we um wrap up and we're gonna do a quick fire. Are y'all ready?

SPEAKER_01:

Sure. Let's go. Okay, so we're gonna go first for the time, Tom.

Amber Ivey:

Yes, Tom's going for. I was about to say we're super confident. Tom is going first for these favorite video game as a kid?

SPEAKER_01:

Super Nintendo. Brothers. Uh sorry. Super Mario Brothers fan. Yes.

Amber Ivey:

Nice. Which one? The original? Number one?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, original. Original.

Amber Ivey:

Okay, great. I love three. That's just me and my life. What about you, Tim? I also like one, but I love it.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm going older than that. I'm going Ultima Four, Quest of the Avatar.

Amber Ivey:

I don't even know what that is. So I have to do it.

SPEAKER_02:

And you had to like, you had to through your actions in the game. You got to slay dragons and everything, but you also had to be a moral character. Um through eight different principles. It was it was fascinating and complex and amazing. For I think it came out in 1985 or something. So it was really ahead of its time.

Amber Ivey:

Oh wow. I always say PC gamers are real gamers. Y'all have their games or way advanced.

SPEAKER_02:

I'll send you a link about it.

Amber Ivey:

On console or mobile. I'm not a PC gamer, but I I've done a few of those, but I've never heard of that, but I would definitely look it up. Okay, next question. Worst tech fail you've ever had.

SPEAKER_01:

Over to you, Tom. So in my case, it was a I was presenting at a conference, huge audience, and I wanted everyone in the room to complete a Google form. And somehow, some way the Google form didn't work, or maybe like the bitly URL I put up didn't work, but I'm trying to show them the results, and nobody can get into the form. And uh oh, it was it was so embarrassing.

Amber Ivey:

That one's hard when everybody's watching. What about you, Tim?

SPEAKER_02:

I've got to be honest, there are too many for me to pick any one, but I want to make this point. If you're not failing, you're not experimenting enough.

Amber Ivey:

That's true.

SPEAKER_02:

And failure should absolutely be celebrated in every performance appraisal I ever write for myself. I mention a time I failed and what I learned from them.

Amber Ivey:

I love that. Kids, failure, I know depending on the generation, a lot of things are about. Likes and everyone liking you, you only make it to where we've only made it to where we are because we failed a lot and we learned along the way. You do not learn without failure. So I really appreciate that. Tom, dream invention you had that should exist by now with all the stuff that we have going on.

SPEAKER_01:

So I don't think I I could create this, but there should be some sort of drug or medicine that you can take and it will cancel the effects of sugar consumption. And doesn't talk about talk about um maybe a community I need to join. But anyway, as far as I need that.

Amber Ivey:

What about you, Tim?

SPEAKER_02:

Um, a colony on Mars. When I was the age of your average listener, I was convinced I was gonna be in the first band to play a gig on Mars. Nice. But now I'm impressed when my watch unlocks my laptop. It's like Tim, I I like to be so disappointed.

SPEAKER_01:

I like to say that Mars and creativity are the exact opposite, right? Like Mars is perfect for robots and creativity is perfect for humans. Like the two yeah.

Amber Ivey:

That's fine. Yeah, because I mean in reality, the first folks who go are gonna have to figure some really tough things out. So I would appreciate in the like this or that, I would choose robots to go there first over humans. Um, all right, Tom, a book, movie, or show that actually gets AI right.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so there's a podcast, two wonderful uh women experts who are so good. Uh, mystery AI Hype Theater 3000. It's definitely some very smart academics, but they get it right.

Amber Ivey:

Oh, I love that. I'm gonna check it out. Tim, over to you.

SPEAKER_02:

So, my favorite work of fiction ever, it's a TV show from the 1990s called Babylon 5. And I think they just get the way that technology and humans interact in the future, the the the right feel to it. Some of it is definitely dated from the 90s, but overall I think they do very well.

Amber Ivey:

I love that. And then last question in Quickfire snack you code or teach with or just use to do whatever work you're doing. Over to you, Tom.

SPEAKER_01:

Um Tim, can you go first? I I'm I'm I'm struggling here.

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. Well, in tech, we I mean pizza's basically currency, but uh, I'm gonna go with ice cream because uh the amount of ice cream socials I've led in tech circles I'm in is uh just fantastic.

SPEAKER_01:

All right, and and I realize so there's there's this brand, it's a little fancy, it's called Quins, and they're so expensive I don't even buy them all the time. But they have these like they're like fancy combos. They have the cheddar and the pizza ones. Yeah, those are so oh they're they're so they're a little too expensive, but they're they're really delicious. I like I like having them when I'm doing stuff.

SPEAKER_02:

We also we haven't gotten ice cream in a while, Tom.

SPEAKER_01:

There you go. Yeah, we haven't gotten tasty either. Uh I'll I'll text you.

Amber Ivey:

I love that. See, this is relationship building, kids. This is what it means to have friends outside of uh the four or the screens uh situation, but thank you all for saying that. I also forgot about combos until right now. I used to love to eat the cheese out of the middle and then eat the pretzel. A second.

SPEAKER_02:

I think we're like crunch the pretzel to get the outside and eat it and then chew down on the little men.

Amber Ivey:

A good memory, I think, of you both for that. So we're about to wrap and we're at the end. Are there any I'm leaving a space open for you all? Anything else you want to make sure that either I didn't ask you or you want to make sure it gets communicated to kids, the floor is open. Feel free to choose who goes first.

SPEAKER_02:

I just want to say I'm far more amazed by the kids in my life than I ever have been by an LLM. So for any of you who are listening, uh you contain multitudes, you're amazing, and keep your imagination and your childlike sense of wonder with you for the rest of your life. It'll be one of your best assets.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, so Tim, that's an awesome answer. And I would say, let me let me get like a little bit negative and dark with it.

Amber Ivey:

Oh, I think that's perfect. That'd be a great way.

SPEAKER_01:

Skepticism. Like you don't have to believe everything you're told. You can always think like, hey, is that and you you know there's certain things you're told, and it turns out they'll be right, but at the same time, there's nothing wrong with like critically examining what your teachers, what your family, what everyone, and that goes for the big tech companies too.

Amber Ivey:

One of the biggest I'm gonna relate to both of you your pieces. My mom has was always the type of person that's like, hey, like if I say something and you don't agree with it, as long as you like disagree respectfully, like bring that to me. And it helped me later in life where I have a voice now because I was given a voice as a kid. I was able to be creative, I was able to challenge what didn't feel right and ask questions in a seek. Like I tell kids all the time, we often try to stop kids from saying why, why, why, why, why. And I'm like, no, the why, the keep questioning until you get to an answer because they're gonna tell you to do it as adults again to figure out problems. So y'all have the basics of what it means to do this work. And I just want to thank you both, Tim and Tom, for taking time with me today to talk about AI from a very different angle than we get to spend a lot of time with on this podcast. Normally it's like a little quick segment where we hit this. So I'm so glad that you brought this idea of like, let's talk about the hype and how it's not really there. And we're really just talking to computer generators and probably putting a little bit more emphasis on it than we should. And I just want to thank you both for being here today and can't wait to hear um more about the work that you're doing. And for the kids, thank you for listening and stay curious. Thanks so much for having us.

SPEAKER_02:

Thank you.

Amber Ivey:

Of course, see you soon. Bye-bye. Thank you for joining us as we explore the fascinating world of artificial intelligence. Don't keep this adventure to yourself. Download it, share it with your friends, and let everyone else in on the fun. Subscribe wherever you get your podcast or on YouTube. See you next time on AI for kids.

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Amber Ivey (AI)

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